How did you just describe my job as a woman pastor under an abusive pastor at a megachurch who went on to be lead pastor at an even bigger megachurch? The Bro Club for me meant literally he and his bro mobbed me in his office until I dissociated. His megachurch pastor bro club still covers for him. Says I made it up for money. What money? I refused the NDA tied to severance and benefits. Can’t crack the code, indeed,
Same on the NDA/severance refusal... so tough. We walk away after years of building and take not one thing with us. Worth it to keep integrity but so challenging!
I'm sad to know you had this horrendous experience too, and high five on the NDA/severance refusal. Walking away after years of building and taking not one thing with us- except trauma is an oppression we need to expose instead of centering the bros on stages with fog machines and speaker-circuit book deals.
One factor contributing to this phenomenon is the Graham/Pence Rule. Men never have a second thought about discussing things together or hanging out after hours, but women are kept at arm’s length. It is therefore no wonder that stronger friendships form between the men (e.g. the golfing buddies).
Btw, I am so sorry for your experience at CT and that of the other female employees. It is surely a lot to process. May the Lord grant you all continued healing.
Sounds like some men may be perverting the intent of “the Billy Graham rule”. To not have one man and one woman alone together when they are not married to each other is a very good practice. That is just pure logic. But what is so hard about adding just one more person. This would uphold the principle that was intended to be in “the Billy Graham rule”.
I disagree with this BG rule. It is steeped in purity culture and misogyny. There is no issue with women and men meeting alone. It happens constantly in the corporate world. It’s just another aspect of the bro code.
In work situations, if men don't want to hang out 1:1 with women, they should not hang out 1:1 with men either, because that way they're not advantaging anyone or disadvantaging anyone in the work place, by creating or excluding them from work place trust or relationship.
the billy graham rule hurt's women's ability to move forward in work relationships, because the small interactions that happen throughout the day are excluded if men won't engage with them. So if men don't engage 1:1 with anyone, the playing field is leveled again.
It partially comes down to how people apply it, but unfortunately there are some men who think they should avoid all conversations with women and others who think they can sexually harass women.
It is obviously appropriate to think about what should be done about such dysfunctional men. But I wonder too if we can, as a society, nip in the bud this type of behavior. Would better parental influence make the difference? I can still remember when I was young, more than a half century ago, my friends would behave as if women were nothing more than sexual objects to be used. It had a very detrimental effect upon my thinking for a very long time. And this, in spite of having an unusually low libido, (Virtually nonexistent now.)
the problem is that men hold the power- who is holding them accountable? not the men that they work with, and the women they work with get moved along when they say things
But the problem isn't just when the rule is misued= when it's used AS INTENDED, it's harmful to women in the work place, because it excludes them from meetings, and from the social interactions that build the trust required to do the work. my solution for people who want to keep the BG rule is that they don't meet alone with (and therefore advantage) anyone, and always include a 3rd, in EVERY conversation, not just mixed sex ones.
It sounds like we may have to just agree to disagree about “used as intended”.
We can’t read the minds of others no matter how much we want to believe they have specific evil thoughts and intentions as a result of being hurt or abused by them.
This may not serve as comfort, but I’d just like to add that some men can be seen as undesirable as a “close confidante” for various reasons, and therefore be excluded also.
It is not “good logic”. It is a deeply flawed assumption about sexuality . I worked in the corporate world for decades, worked closely with men in offices, restaurants, traveled together, took meals together. All professionals.
Found non-Christian men more professional, respectful, more supportive, more collaborative.
Mary Magdalen and the other women who went to the tomb and found it empty could not crack the bro code.
Jesus is the only man in Christendom I know who stood up for women against the bro code. The bros in Christendom today mouth adherence to Jesus, but their actions show how little they really follow Jesus’s example of treating women with respect and honouring women who resist the bro code.
Thank you Katelyn for this post --- from a lamenting and bruised sister in Christ in Australia.
Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt. I want to see things change though. Jesus did not treat women like the men you’ve described here. But your last line - “it’s on you bro,” is so good because we need men who want to see change. I wonder how men think Jesus treated women - even egalitarians. That seems to be how men might change. To tap into their images of Jesus and women.
I was a senior leader in a Fortune 15 and 10 years in a global 8B company. As a young 23yo, I was mentored by WW2 MDs crazy brilliant men near end of their careers, all senior executives. The least sexist, the most encouraging, creating opportunities for this young woman leader and many others. Mentoring, teaching, coaching. On the other hand-church. not ever really welcome in a church. I twist myself to fit in but never really belong. Pastors just ignore women like me. End of story
Fully agreed. Throw in the stupid "Billy Graham Rule" and women have even less chance to get ahead, because they're excluded from all of the small social interactions that build the familiarity and trust needed to move forward. Thankfully, in the last Christian institution that started trying to fire me within a month of being hired (I ended up lasting 8 years!), my bosses all the way up fought the powers that be, and argued for me. Which I am thankful for, since my self advocacy would not have carried the same weight.
Oh the bro codes! I remember realizing I didn't want to apply to a tech company because the president was quoted in the business pages as saying, "We get our best ideas around the foosball table." Like, how many women hang out playing foosball ever??? I also remember working as Director of Publications / magazine editor at an evangelical organization in the 1990s when the economy was rough, donations were down, and we let the receptionist go. Everyone took turns at the front desk. Except when guests came in -- even guests I'd sat in meetings with -- they didn't recognize me. I was just "the girl at the desk." As Dorothy Sayers asked so many decades ago, "Are women human?"
Include women. Not just at every table that they could conceivably be at, but in the hang outs ,and lets-grab-coffees, and office jokes. Elevate their ideas and voices with your male collegues, and note out loud when they're being talked over or ignored. Champion them. Recognize out loud their contributions. I have had bosses that have done this for me, and it raised my credibility with the men in the room. Men should already value women as people, but until they do, we need men like you to teach them how to.
From someone else trying to open the discourse as well:
Watch for ways that women's critique/complaints are framed as emotional or motivated by "having a history," especially when men's comments are framed neutrally as "observations" that are "simply logical" or just "applying our policy." (I've heard men protect their hurt feelings by attributing a woman's well reasoned critique to *her* hurt feelings.)
Assume and defend women as though they are twice as talented and only getting half the credit and you will be on the right track, even if you forget on occasion. (When this is studied up close, it is often verifiable.) Now, for 3 full minutes, imagine that is your life everyday single day--this massive wall you bang against. And after that 3 min, if you feel empathy, please stick up for women every chance you get. Also you can be really thankful that most women want merely equality and fair treatment (which is their human right)... and are not opting for revenge for the eons and eons of horrible treatments. ❤️ 😘
Think about where ideas are shared and how and when you strategize. If the men go off to play golf or basketball, etc that includes senior leadership, then men get heard much more. I taught at a university where the male faculty played basketball with the chief academic officer every Friday which gave them access the women, non-athletic or differently abled did not.
Paul, recognize that it is male and female, together, who were made in God's image (Genesis 1:27). To be "one" is the correct image of God. The church is to be one body. Women are half of that correct image, that body.
For a woman to be the glory of man means to be seen, not to be silenced, subjugated, and sacrificed as the church has a long history of doing. Women should be heard, liberated, and seen instead. We have twisted scripture to support the silencing, subjugating, and sacrificing of women. (This happens to men also, but we're speaking of women here.)
Jesus came to set all free. Let's understand how to do so. Silencing, subjugating, and sacrificing are all from man. We stop these behaviors, in any ways that we can. One way is to have a better understanding of scripture.
This happened to my wife. She was a seminary prof. A male student who was in her class complained (he happened to be the son of a board member) and pretty soon she was asked "whether she knew a male pastor who could teach her content" and was *asked for her curriculum*.
Well, when the base information of the faith is that women are inherently less than and subservient to men, and the source material (their Bible) instructs that women may not lead or teach men and should be quiet, where do you go from there? It's a feature that benefits men and maintains their power. It will never be seen as a glitch.
I think this is an oversimplification of what the Bible teaches, and more importantly, how Jesus and Paul actually interpreted and acted on Scripture with regards to women. However, I do think telling men to “act better” is also not enough, since the power imbalance is baked in to evangelical culture and systems. I worked in a staff leadership position at a theologically orthodox church for seven years where I was encouraged, given substantial raises, and my opinion was highly valued. But it often felt like the men in the room had to constantly course-correct and prevent themselves from excluding women. And even with that, there would invariably be important decision-making committees that, through systemic design, had no women on them at all! As Katelyn points out, this is not on any one person or even group to fix. It will require some deep looks at how committees, policies, and staffing structures are designed at churches and organizations.
How did you just describe my job as a woman pastor under an abusive pastor at a megachurch who went on to be lead pastor at an even bigger megachurch? The Bro Club for me meant literally he and his bro mobbed me in his office until I dissociated. His megachurch pastor bro club still covers for him. Says I made it up for money. What money? I refused the NDA tied to severance and benefits. Can’t crack the code, indeed,
😞😞😞🙏🏼❤️🩹❤️🩹❤️🩹❤️🩹❤️🩹
Same on the NDA/severance refusal... so tough. We walk away after years of building and take not one thing with us. Worth it to keep integrity but so challenging!
I'm sad to know you had this horrendous experience too, and high five on the NDA/severance refusal. Walking away after years of building and taking not one thing with us- except trauma is an oppression we need to expose instead of centering the bros on stages with fog machines and speaker-circuit book deals.
One factor contributing to this phenomenon is the Graham/Pence Rule. Men never have a second thought about discussing things together or hanging out after hours, but women are kept at arm’s length. It is therefore no wonder that stronger friendships form between the men (e.g. the golfing buddies).
Yes, of course! I should have definitely included more on the Billy Graham rule here. Thank you for noting it.
Well, you can’t include everything!
Btw, I am so sorry for your experience at CT and that of the other female employees. It is surely a lot to process. May the Lord grant you all continued healing.
Sounds like some men may be perverting the intent of “the Billy Graham rule”. To not have one man and one woman alone together when they are not married to each other is a very good practice. That is just pure logic. But what is so hard about adding just one more person. This would uphold the principle that was intended to be in “the Billy Graham rule”.
I disagree with this BG rule. It is steeped in purity culture and misogyny. There is no issue with women and men meeting alone. It happens constantly in the corporate world. It’s just another aspect of the bro code.
In work situations, if men don't want to hang out 1:1 with women, they should not hang out 1:1 with men either, because that way they're not advantaging anyone or disadvantaging anyone in the work place, by creating or excluding them from work place trust or relationship.
the billy graham rule hurt's women's ability to move forward in work relationships, because the small interactions that happen throughout the day are excluded if men won't engage with them. So if men don't engage 1:1 with anyone, the playing field is leveled again.
It partially comes down to how people apply it, but unfortunately there are some men who think they should avoid all conversations with women and others who think they can sexually harass women.
It is obviously appropriate to think about what should be done about such dysfunctional men. But I wonder too if we can, as a society, nip in the bud this type of behavior. Would better parental influence make the difference? I can still remember when I was young, more than a half century ago, my friends would behave as if women were nothing more than sexual objects to be used. It had a very detrimental effect upon my thinking for a very long time. And this, in spite of having an unusually low libido, (Virtually nonexistent now.)
the problem is that men hold the power- who is holding them accountable? not the men that they work with, and the women they work with get moved along when they say things
But the problem isn't just when the rule is misued= when it's used AS INTENDED, it's harmful to women in the work place, because it excludes them from meetings, and from the social interactions that build the trust required to do the work. my solution for people who want to keep the BG rule is that they don't meet alone with (and therefore advantage) anyone, and always include a 3rd, in EVERY conversation, not just mixed sex ones.
Jen,
It sounds like we may have to just agree to disagree about “used as intended”.
We can’t read the minds of others no matter how much we want to believe they have specific evil thoughts and intentions as a result of being hurt or abused by them.
This may not serve as comfort, but I’d just like to add that some men can be seen as undesirable as a “close confidante” for various reasons, and therefore be excluded also.
It is not “good logic”. It is a deeply flawed assumption about sexuality . I worked in the corporate world for decades, worked closely with men in offices, restaurants, traveled together, took meals together. All professionals.
Found non-Christian men more professional, respectful, more supportive, more collaborative.
Mary Magdalen and the other women who went to the tomb and found it empty could not crack the bro code.
Jesus is the only man in Christendom I know who stood up for women against the bro code. The bros in Christendom today mouth adherence to Jesus, but their actions show how little they really follow Jesus’s example of treating women with respect and honouring women who resist the bro code.
Thank you Katelyn for this post --- from a lamenting and bruised sister in Christ in Australia.
Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt. I want to see things change though. Jesus did not treat women like the men you’ve described here. But your last line - “it’s on you bro,” is so good because we need men who want to see change. I wonder how men think Jesus treated women - even egalitarians. That seems to be how men might change. To tap into their images of Jesus and women.
I was a senior leader in a Fortune 15 and 10 years in a global 8B company. As a young 23yo, I was mentored by WW2 MDs crazy brilliant men near end of their careers, all senior executives. The least sexist, the most encouraging, creating opportunities for this young woman leader and many others. Mentoring, teaching, coaching. On the other hand-church. not ever really welcome in a church. I twist myself to fit in but never really belong. Pastors just ignore women like me. End of story
😩
Fully agreed. Throw in the stupid "Billy Graham Rule" and women have even less chance to get ahead, because they're excluded from all of the small social interactions that build the familiarity and trust needed to move forward. Thankfully, in the last Christian institution that started trying to fire me within a month of being hired (I ended up lasting 8 years!), my bosses all the way up fought the powers that be, and argued for me. Which I am thankful for, since my self advocacy would not have carried the same weight.
Oh the bro codes! I remember realizing I didn't want to apply to a tech company because the president was quoted in the business pages as saying, "We get our best ideas around the foosball table." Like, how many women hang out playing foosball ever??? I also remember working as Director of Publications / magazine editor at an evangelical organization in the 1990s when the economy was rough, donations were down, and we let the receptionist go. Everyone took turns at the front desk. Except when guests came in -- even guests I'd sat in meetings with -- they didn't recognize me. I was just "the girl at the desk." As Dorothy Sayers asked so many decades ago, "Are women human?"
“Are women human?” 😭
Experienced all of this treatment and behavior from men at a prominent, for-profit evangelical institution. Thank you for writing this.
So accurate. Just lived this.
Likewise
Katelyn ... this hits so close to home. SO CLOSE.
Ugh. So, so close.
Same
This is pure gold, Katelyn. Thank you, thank you, thank you for saying this out loud!
Ditto!
What advice do you have for men who want to crack the bro code? What are some positive ways we can help?
Include women. Not just at every table that they could conceivably be at, but in the hang outs ,and lets-grab-coffees, and office jokes. Elevate their ideas and voices with your male collegues, and note out loud when they're being talked over or ignored. Champion them. Recognize out loud their contributions. I have had bosses that have done this for me, and it raised my credibility with the men in the room. Men should already value women as people, but until they do, we need men like you to teach them how to.
Thank you! Anything else, anyone?
From someone else trying to open the discourse as well:
Watch for ways that women's critique/complaints are framed as emotional or motivated by "having a history," especially when men's comments are framed neutrally as "observations" that are "simply logical" or just "applying our policy." (I've heard men protect their hurt feelings by attributing a woman's well reasoned critique to *her* hurt feelings.)
Pay women. (More.)
Of course.
(thank you for even asking, you lovely man)
Assume and defend women as though they are twice as talented and only getting half the credit and you will be on the right track, even if you forget on occasion. (When this is studied up close, it is often verifiable.) Now, for 3 full minutes, imagine that is your life everyday single day--this massive wall you bang against. And after that 3 min, if you feel empathy, please stick up for women every chance you get. Also you can be really thankful that most women want merely equality and fair treatment (which is their human right)... and are not opting for revenge for the eons and eons of horrible treatments. ❤️ 😘
Talk about the harmful impact of the Billy Graham rule.
Believe women.
Think about where ideas are shared and how and when you strategize. If the men go off to play golf or basketball, etc that includes senior leadership, then men get heard much more. I taught at a university where the male faculty played basketball with the chief academic officer every Friday which gave them access the women, non-athletic or differently abled did not.
Paul, recognize that it is male and female, together, who were made in God's image (Genesis 1:27). To be "one" is the correct image of God. The church is to be one body. Women are half of that correct image, that body.
For a woman to be the glory of man means to be seen, not to be silenced, subjugated, and sacrificed as the church has a long history of doing. Women should be heard, liberated, and seen instead. We have twisted scripture to support the silencing, subjugating, and sacrificing of women. (This happens to men also, but we're speaking of women here.)
Jesus came to set all free. Let's understand how to do so. Silencing, subjugating, and sacrificing are all from man. We stop these behaviors, in any ways that we can. One way is to have a better understanding of scripture.
“there’s something in the water at evangelical institutions — even those that claim to be egalitarian — that’s bad for women leaders.”
I agree 100%.
This happened to my wife. She was a seminary prof. A male student who was in her class complained (he happened to be the son of a board member) and pretty soon she was asked "whether she knew a male pastor who could teach her content" and was *asked for her curriculum*.
“Yep, sure, take my intellectual property”… 🤬
I thought our phrase was “ovaries before brovaries.”
I think Leslie Knope’s phrase was “uteruses before duderuses”
Hahaha yes
Well, when the base information of the faith is that women are inherently less than and subservient to men, and the source material (their Bible) instructs that women may not lead or teach men and should be quiet, where do you go from there? It's a feature that benefits men and maintains their power. It will never be seen as a glitch.
I think this is an oversimplification of what the Bible teaches, and more importantly, how Jesus and Paul actually interpreted and acted on Scripture with regards to women. However, I do think telling men to “act better” is also not enough, since the power imbalance is baked in to evangelical culture and systems. I worked in a staff leadership position at a theologically orthodox church for seven years where I was encouraged, given substantial raises, and my opinion was highly valued. But it often felt like the men in the room had to constantly course-correct and prevent themselves from excluding women. And even with that, there would invariably be important decision-making committees that, through systemic design, had no women on them at all! As Katelyn points out, this is not on any one person or even group to fix. It will require some deep looks at how committees, policies, and staffing structures are designed at churches and organizations.
Also we could use more institutions founded by women!
Perhaps we have misunderstood scripture.